Lupe Farkas

Lupe 00:00

Hello Rebels. This is Lupe Farkas. Welcome to Imperfect Rebel. And here is my Coke. Let's see if we can hear it. Okay. So today is a special episode because we have Leslie Reta with us, the author of Always Forever. And I love this girl very, very much. I'm very proud of everything that she did. I feel so honored that she's here with us today. So I'm just gonna pour my Coke, because you guys know that I'm powered by Coke Zero. I'm not the healthiest person in the world.

And let's say hi to Leslie. Hi Leslie. How are you?

Leslie 00:34

I'm really good. I'm glad to be here.

Lupe 00:36

Are you drinking Coke Zero too, or is it too early?

Leslie 00:39

It's too early for me, so I was fueled by large amounts of caffeine with coffee.

Lupe 00:45

That's very good. What time is it at your place? And tell us where you are.

Leslie 00:49

I am in San Antonio, Texas, and it is 10:06 in the morning.

Lupe 00:53

Wow, okay. I am in Slovakia in Nitra and it's 5:06 p.m. So rebels already know that I'm not very normal, so that's fine. So Leslie, you wrote Always Forever and you made me cry.

Leslie 01:12

I made me cry.

Lupe 01:13

You made yourself cry writing it, didn't you? My God.

Leslie 01:16

It was definitely a journey.

Lupe 01:20

You should have been sponsored by Kleenex! What's it called, the tissue brand there in the United States? Kleenex, you see?

Leslie 01:26

Kleenex. Huh.

Lupe 01:29

It should have been sponsored by them while you were writing this book because gosh, Leslie. I think I wrote it to you in the email, but our rebels don't know. So I woke up in the morning and I read your email. One of the most beautiful emails I received. And I was in a spa. It was a weekend away with my husband. And right in the morning, first thing in the morning I read your email and I was like, Okay, let me go check her book.

And I went to check your book on Kindle Unlimited, I think. And I started reading it straight away and I read it that day. It was a Saturday, I remember. And I finished it around two PM here in Europe. And I wrote you an email.

Leslie 02:18

You did. And I cried.

Lupe 02:20

Of course. Because what else do we do?

Leslie 02:23

A lot of crying.

Lupe 02:24

My God, Leslie. It's one hundred and fifty pages, right? One hundred and fifty, one hundred and sixty?

Leslie 02:30

I think on Kindle it may be a little bit more. On paperback it's ninety-nine.

Lupe 02:36

Okay, yes, yes. Kindle is a little bit more because I remember I was shy of one hundred and fifty, I think. I just couldn't stop reading and of course it's a true story. So before I start with the questions, you wanna tell our imperfect rebels what is the book about?

Leslie 02:55

So Always Forever. It's a memoir. It's the story of my life, about love, addiction and letting go. It goes through my life story, my daughter's and my ex-husband's, and how addiction really affects the family. We talk so much about the people with the addiction that we forget there is an entire family, a spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend or husband, living the addiction as well without ever touching the drug.

Lupe 03:31

Yeah. And for people meeting you for the first time, who is Leslie Reta?

Leslie 03:35

A mom. That's probably the very first go-to answer that pops in my head. And apparently that question is a lot harder for me than it should be. I spent almost 20 years with child protective services. I think I was there for 17 and a half. I'm a wife, I'm an author now, which still feels incredibly weird to say. I've spent a lot of my life being the person that handles everything, who gets things done, who figures things out. But if you really strip all of that away and ask me who I am instead of what I do, I'm Kay's mom.

Lupe 04:12

That's beautiful. That's very beautiful. Yeah. And reading your book, I could totally feel the love that you have towards your daughter and also the love that you have towards motherhood because in your book you say that each and every kid that you helped during your career, you saw your daughter. So in that moment, they were also your kids. So not only the mother of your daughter, but also the mother of all the children that you helped throughout seventeen years and a half of your career.

So it's very beautiful.

Leslie 04:51

I tell my families every single time, ‘Your kids are my kids until I leave you.’

Lupe 04:56

Yeah. Yeah. And it's written in the book, this phrase and you know only a person with a heart like yours can say that because sometimes I feel that people that work like in your case, helping families like or doctors, nurses, throughout their careers sometimes they build this wall. Maybe as a protection so you don't feel them sometimes as humans. But reading your book, it's like you never built this wall and you're always seeing the people as humans, seeing yourself in them and helping them from a place of the heart and not as a place that already became robotic, you understand what I mean.

Yeah, I felt that through your book. And it gets me a little bit emotional to be honest, because it's hard to find people that do your job and other kinds of job helping other people that maintain this humanity that you maintained even though you were going through hell in your own home. Was there a particular moment when what you had lived through stopped being something you had survived and became something you were ready to write about?

Leslie 06:23

I don't think there was ever really one moment. I think for years the running joke was always that I had been through enough and seen enough to kind of have an entire drama series, but that's all it was. It was just a joke. And then there was a night in October of last year, so 2025, after I had actually searched the morgue that I opened up my computer and I just started typing. I've always been a huge advocate for therapy and mental health.

I truly believe in it. But there was also a lot of times where I felt really judged, even in spaces where I was supposed to feel like I was able to talk about anything that I was living through. And writing really became that place where I didn't have to explain myself. I didn't have to defend why I stayed, why I loved him, why I was angry, or even why I still cared. I could just be. And it wasn't really about publishing my story.

I wasn't sitting there thinking I was writing a book. Honestly, it was therapy. And it just kind of snowballed from there. It was a way for me to cope.

Lupe 07:20

So you started writing the book sort of like letting go of your past?

Leslie 07:26

I think there were a lot of things that I had never let myself truly feel. And so for some reason that particular night, searching the morgue hit me a lot harder than it normally did. And I just needed to try to make sense of all of the shit that was in my head.

Lupe 07:45

Yeah. And did it help?

Leslie 07:47

It did. It was extremely therapeutic. It was never about letting people in. It was never about publishing a book or even telling my story. It was just about trying to make sense of what I lived and what I felt.

Lupe 08:05

You use lived memories, reflection and diary entries throughout the memoir. Were those diaries something you had preserved throughout those years?

Leslie 08:15

So I have a really, really, really bad habit of starting diaries and never finishing them. I actually did the same thing with Michaela when she was little. I would start writing letters to her and life would happen, something would happen, and I would stop. So the diary entries that are actually in the book aren't from some beautifully preserved journal that I faithfully kept for years. They're pieces. They're some few moments from back then that I actually managed to get onto paper.

And reading them was really, really hard. Because I can look at that version of myself and kind of see things I couldn't really see while I was living it. That woman was terrified. And she was absolutely fucking tired. But she never really had the chance to stop. There was always something else that needed to be handled, a kid that needed to be taken care of, bills, crisis. Life didn't stop because she was exhausted or scared.

Lupe 09:09

Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it feels that when you're exhausted and scared and that things multiply on top of that. I can totally imagine.

Leslie 09:18

Kind of tighten up your bootstraps and just keep fucking moving. Put one foot in front of the other and you just figure it out.

Lupe 09:27

Yeah. Yeah, because in the book correct me if I'm wrong, you mentioned only once the financial burden also that Chris's addiction brought to you. That you were getting some kind of government help while you were helping other families also to get that, right? So you were helping families that were going through the same issues that you were going through while having them and this is the only moment you mentioned the financial issues and burdens and problems but reading your book I thought about it many times I was like My God how was this girl because you were so young, you were a baby how was that girl paying bills also dealing because I'm sure that Chris's addiction also brought you to spend money taking him there, taking him whatever he needed, then he went to jail.

Of course you had a lot of money going out also towards him, right? So I read the book, I was like, how did this girl manage to take care of a child, take care of a house, pay the bills, have money, you know, celebrate Christmas and birthdays and everything, and also help him. I was reading and just imagining the hell that you were going through. And I don't know, I felt like I wanted to hug you throughout the book. Every page that I turned, I wish that you were not in Texas, but you were right here next to me to hug you, seriously.

Leslie 11:08

I appreciate that.

Lupe 11:08

So yeah. It must have been very hard. How did you pay the bills?

Leslie 11:13

Honestly, if I'm being really honest, I really don't remember how I did it. There was a lot of money going out and any time Chris went to jail or a rehab facility, then I would have to replace his entire wardrobe and you know, toiletries and things like that. And since I worked for the state, then I always made too much to get government help like food stamps here in the US. So I never was on food stamps, but I did have WIC when Michaela was little.

Christmas, I did Toys for Tots because I didn't have money for Christmas. And so I was utilizing the very same resources that I was providing to my families. And I think honestly, that's what made me relate to my families a little bit more and what made them relate to me a little bit more was I was dealing with the exact same shit. And…

Lupe 12:10

Yeah. And that's what I thought. Yeah. Reading your book, I thought she must have been like well on the other side, Leslie, who better than you to help those families? Because you were going through it. You were inside the government. So you knew how to get the help and everything. So the families that you helped were the luckiest, I think.

Leslie 12:33

To this day, I still have several of my CPS clients that reach out and that I have stayed in touch with over the years and they still seek guidance, they still seek coaching from me and I absolutely love that.

Lupe 12:46

Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, yeah. Because who else better than you? Like and I'm sorry that I went off topic of our questions, but it's just…

Leslie 12:54

You're absolutely fine.

Lupe 12:56

That because your book brought so many thoughts, so many questions in me. But these questions were already answered because you know, if you have a brain you understand that you were the best helper that these people could get because you were there, right? It's admirable.

Leslie 13:15

Thank you. [Unclear in supplied transcript.]

Lupe 13:16

Wow. Looking back at what you did is beautiful. How you reacted to it all. And I get emotional speaking with Leslie because Leslie is a badass. She's an imperfect rebel, but for real. So one of the most difficult things to understand from outside a relationship affected by addiction is that love does not simply disappear because somebody is hurting you. And you explained that very well in the book, and I understood it. You explained it so well that sometimes like, girl, just tell him to fuck off.

You know, I was like because I got so emotional. I was like, fucking hell. Again she's gonna take him to sign there with the police. I'm sorry guys, I don't remember the exact wording that you used. Again she's gonna take him there, again, you know, so sometimes I even got mad. But we often talk about leaving as though it should be an obvious or simple decision. What do people misunderstand about loving someone who is living with addiction?

Leslie 14:22

One of the biggest things that people really misunderstand is that the people who aren't using need to recover too. People ask kind of why we stay, like it is a simple decision, right? That we're just refusing to make. But it's not always that simple. And I really tried to kind of convey that. I watched someone that I loved incredibly, slowly just become a shell of who he used to be. But every once in a while, Chris was still there. The person that I fell in love with, the person that I built a life with.

He was still there somewhere. And I really held on to those glimpses so fucking tightly that I started really adapting my entire life around the addiction. I adjusted, I made excuses, I learned how to read a room before anybody ever said a word. I started anticipating the next crisis, started figuring out how to handle the next shit before it even ever happened. And I think I really started kind of losing myself. I never wanted to leave him. I wanted the addiction to leave him.

I wanted our family. I wanted the life that we were supposed to have without meth being in the middle of it. I know that while I was holding on to the person that I remembered, I was really slowly becoming someone I didn't recognize either. And I think that's really the part that people don't talk about enough. I never touched meth, I never touched the drug, but meth really still dictated a ridiculous amount of my life. So I had to recover from it too.

Lupe 15:52

Yeah. Yeah. I felt that for you was also very hard to let go because you knew him since you guys were children. So you knew him as a preteen, teenager, right? And thirteen years old, correct me if I'm wrong, fourteen, thirteen, is it?

Leslie 16:11

I was twelve, he was thirteen when we first met.

Lupe 16:14

Yeah, so like beginning of adolescence, right? And you went through the teenage years, then you guys grew up together. So you saw the change in him while he was growing up and you were growing up, and we know how love is strong when we are teenagers, right? I have no experience as you working with these dynamics with addiction. What came to my mind quickly was maybe if she would have met him when she was already, I don't know, 30 years old and he was, I don't know, 32, she wouldn't have seen him.

The real him without meth, maybe it would have been easier for her to let go, for her to be selfish, think only about herself and tell him, Go away, get out of our life. But since you knew him since he was a child practically, and you guys grew up together, it was harder.

Leslie 17:15

It was a lot harder because as the years passed it became more and more increasingly of this is somebody that I have had for over half of my life. And he was my absolute best friend in the world and had helped me through a lot of really hard times. And so when I saw those glimpses, I held on really fucking tight to those glimpses.

Lupe 17:42

Yeah, it's because it's a true love story. This is the kind of love story between you and Chris that we see in movies. You guys meet in your teenage years, go through school, grow up together and get married. That had everything to be these love stories that we see in movies, right? So yeah. It had everything to be beautiful if it wasn't meth, right? Yeah. There were moments particularly when I was reading about what your daughter was going through, when I caught myself thinking, Leslie, take your daughter and run, go somewhere else, protect her from all of this.

And then I realized how simplistic that thought was because I was looking at your life from the outside. How do you look back now at the choices you were making while you were actually living inside that reality? And just a little thing that I judged you for that. I was like, bitch, why you didn't just take your daughter and go away? But then I was like, no, she made the best decision. Because children, especially when they become teenagers, they tend to judge us as mothers a lot.

If she would have done that. And then because of the decisions your daughter made that made me realize, no, she did the best thing. By doing this, she showed to her daughter that she did absolutely everything she could. And her daughter could never have two issues, you know, the issues with the father and also the mommy issues. So just one. My simplistic brain was like, no, Leslie is so smart. She didn't give her two issues, she let her have only one that wasn't her fault.

And her daughter saw how much she fought, and then her daughter took a decision. And there you became my superhero, for real. My God, this woman is like I don't know. I just didn't have words. I was like, gosh, this bitch is a badass. I was like, she's so cool. But yeah, and how…

Leslie 19:45

I totally didn't feel cool living it.

Lupe 19:49

Sorry, say that again.

Leslie 19:50

I said I totally didn't feel cool while living it, that's for sure.

Lupe 19:55

Yeah, but for me looking outside, you know, and probably you also, if you would see a mother doing the same, you would be and especially with your experience, you'd go, Yeah, you did right. But yeah, and how do you look back now at the choices you were making while you were actually living inside that reality? Now that you are an adult, older.

Leslie 20:15

I think if I'm being honest, the judgment is really a fair reaction. Hell looking back, there are moments when I kind of wanted to grab that version of myself by the shoulders and say, What the fuck are you doing? But I also kind of know what she was trying to do. I don't think I was really sitting there choosing Chris over Kayla. I was just trying to figure out how to protect her while also trying to hold everything together as a whole.

I think I kept thinking that. There was a way to do that. There had to be some kind of way. If I could just figure out the right thing to do, then maybe life wouldn't fucking fall apart. I made a lot of mistakes. There were a lot of decisions I look back on now that I wish I had made differently. I'll never pretend that I was the perfect parent or that I made all the perfect choices. But the person that I am now looking back has information that the person living it didn't have.

I know now how things turned out. I know which promises didn't last. I know how much of what was happening, Kay was really absorbing, even though I really kind of thought I was not shielding her, but protecting her in the best way that I knew how. And that's a really fucking hard thing to sit with. I think that I always say that, you know, I have no regrets, right? So I can't go back and change the choices that I made, but I can be honest about the choices that I made.

And I can acknowledge that I was really trying to protect her. And there were things that truthfully I didn't protect her from. I loved Kay, I loved Chris, and I was just trying to navigate a situation where every choice that I ever made felt like it came with a consequence for somebody that I loved. I don't need to pretend that I got everything right to understand why I made the choices that I did. I just need to accept the choices that I did.

Lupe 22:17

Yeah. But you also taught your daughter very important lessons in life that are very important. You made her stronger, you made her see the right and the wrong in real life, showing her how to act. So these are lessons, you know, that are important for children to learn. You didn't protect her in a fake crystal bubble that could break anytime. And this will make her a very strong woman. I'm sure she's a very strong teenager. But one day, we don't know what life has in store for her, but I'm sure she's gonna have a beautiful life.

But even when you have a beautiful life, you have some heartbreaks. But because of you, she's gonna be able to walk through these heartbreaks with her head up and strong. And…

Leslie 23:09

I hope so.

Lupe 23:10

If you would have protected her under a crystal ball, she would break all the time. And that's very dangerous. So I only have beautiful things to say to you. And seeing also the pictures of you and Kayla on Facebook and how she has truly happy eyes and this is something you cannot fake. You know, a smile you can fake, but true happy smiley eyes you cannot fake that. And she has that. So you did great, Leslie.

Leslie 23:42

Thank you. She's a great kid.

Lupe 23:44

Yeah, I'm sure she is. Where is the line between hope and self-abandonment? And when we are inside a situation like that, do we recognize that we have crossed the line or is it something we can only understand afterwards?

Leslie 23:56

I think hope turns into self-abandonment when you start sacrificing yourself to keep it alive. And I don't really think you necessarily realize it when you're in it. Lord knows I didn't. His needs were always louder, his crises were always bigger. I was always capable, so I just handled the shit. I handled the next thing and then I handled the next and I kept hoping that Chris would get better. And every glimpse of who he used to be just gave me another reason to hold on tighter.

And I just kind of kept telling myself that we just needed to get through this one more thing, this one more thing, but there was always another fucking one more thing. And…

Lupe 24:35

Always another one.

Leslie 24:36

I was exhausted. I wasn't happy. I just didn't realize how much of myself I was giving up in the process. At the time, I don't think I really thought that I was losing myself. I was thinking about not losing him, whether that was to death, jail, or him just disappearing. It wasn't that I didn't really become the center of my story anymore. I just kind of disappeared from my story.

Lupe 25:11

Yeah. Now, listening to you, a very strong scene from your book came to my mind. I don't wanna spoil it because I want people to go read your book, but I will just tell you which one: what happened in the car with Kayla on the backseat. I don't know. I don't know what kept you so calm. I had to read that more than once because I was trying to understand reading your words, what kept you so calm. I was thinking that it was because your daughter was on the backseat.

So your daughter was your anchor. And that gave…

Leslie 25:49

She always has been.

Lupe 25:50

You the strength.

Leslie 25:51

Yeah, she always has been. And if I'm being really honest, I really don't know how we survived that lovely episode. I just remember in so many ways, so many ways. And I just…

Lupe 26:01

Yeah. That could have been wrong in so many crazy ways. Yeah. Yeah.

Leslie 26:11

Remember thinking, I can't let her see this. I can't let her see this. And I think that was really my motivation for trying to fix the situation.

Lupe 26:21

Yeah, that was crazy. I thought that this was the kind of thing that only happens in movies. I was reading that I was like, no, that this is not fucking possible. That Leslie went through this. This is not fucking possible. And I had to, as I told you, reread it a few times. I was like, my God. Yeah. But I don't wanna spoil it because people need to read your book. And as I wrote to you in the email, it should be read in high school, I think that children from eleven years old, twelve years old on should read your book.

Like it should be mandatory in schools because it's it really describes how dangerous drugs are. So we talk a lot about boundaries. Now sometimes almost as though a boundary is simply a sentence we say to another person. But in your story boundaries have real consequences. For people you still deeply love, what did learning boundaries actually look like for you?

Leslie 27:20

So I'm gonna be really honest. I'm still learning boundaries. So let's kind of start there. I think I spent so many years being the person who figured shit out. It just kind of became second nature. Something happens, great. What do we need to do? How do we fix it? You know, what's the next dumpster fire that I can put out? And when it's really somebody that you love, it's hard. It's so hard. To just stand there and let them figure it out for themselves because you don't want them to drown.

And it's even harder when you know what can happen if you don't step in. Right? I could recognize that something needed to change. It's funny too because I would set a boundary and then I'd think about him and I would feel guilty about that boundary and I would start questioning every decision that I ever made. And…

Lupe 28:16

Yeah, 'cause guilt is a bitch.

Leslie 28:17

Guilt is a bitch. And so all of that didn't magically go away. Correct. And so…

Lupe 28:20

Yeah. And a saboteur. And a saboteur. Yeah.

Leslie 28:27

It's funny because and I say that it's funny and it's really not funny, but it's funny. But I still really kind of catch myself taking on things that aren't mine to carry. I am trying to get better at recognizing when I'm doing it. I catch myself a lot before I kind of jump in to be [unclear nickname]. I am the queen of [unclear nickname], by the way. And I think sometimes I realize that I shouldn't have taken it on or volunteered for a whole new pile of shit.

I definitely haven't mastered the boundaries aspect. I think I'm still figuring out how to care about people without making myself responsible for them. I'm really good when it comes to work though. Like I have really good boundaries with clients that I'm working with, that I'm coaching, with staff that I'm coaching, but man, personal life is a bitch.

Lupe 29:25

I have that problem too. It's impossible to say no. I had a very good friend that he told me once, you need to learn how to say no. You will see the change in your life. Fast forward, he told me this 13 years ago and I still didn't learn. So here we go.

Leslie 29:42

Because it's so much easier said than done because the people that tell you just need to learn how to say no, they don't have to deal with the consequences of what that means. Or they're not walking…

Lupe 29:53

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Leslie 29:55

In the shoes of the decisions that are being made. And so yeah, I can just say no, but when I say no and they start drowning, that's really hard for me to watch. And I would rather just fix it.

Lupe 30:07

Then yeah. But then you know the person that told me this, it's a man. And for men to say no, it's a lot easier than a woman because we yeah.

Leslie 30:15

It's a lot easier because exactly.

Lupe 30:18

Because we are conditioned since we are very little to say yes. Go grab a beer for your daddy. Yes, you go. Go do that, go do this. But I remember. Growing up in the eighties, it was always, you know, it doesn't matter if you had a brother or somebody else male next to you. If you were there, it was always you having to get up, always you having to do things. We were taught not to be difficult. So we always said yes.

So…

Leslie 30:48

I think, especially when you're either the oldest child or the oldest daughter, then it's ten times worse because you just look at not just who's around you, but you want to protect even the younger siblings, right? You want to shield them from whatever that you can. And I think I really carried a lot of those personality traits that I thought were great personality traits into my teenage years and into my adulthood.

Lupe 31:17

Yes, because you grew up also in a household where you already had to control yourself. As you say you had to read the room, read the people, control yourself, behave yourself, control the narratives to have peace, let's say, yeah,…

Leslie 31:36

Excellent.

Lupe 31:37

Or some sort of tranquility. So I can only imagine that when all these problems started with Chris, even if you didn't want to, your brain went back to that state of mind. And so you started to function in automatic controlling, trying to control the narrative, control the room, control his state of mind to maintain this fake calm, because you had a daughter, of course, right? And you didn't want the things…

Leslie 32:05

Mm. And I can fix it.

Lupe 32:07

To get worse. Yeah, of course, you can fix everything, right? Because we are women.

Leslie 32:10

I can fix it. I can fix everything.

Lupe 32:12

Of course. And you know what? We women always have this thing, no, we can change him, we can help him, no, we can deal with this, we can deal with that. We are strong, we can face this, if it was a man, if it was him towards you, it would be different. There is a study that I was reading when a man ends up in jail, he doesn't get abandoned, but when a woman ends up in jail, she gets abandoned. A woman will never abandon.

Leslie 32:43

I can probably absolutely agree with that. I can probably 100% agree with that.

Lupe 32:48

So yeah, it's I don't wanna enter the gender, but unfortunately we have to enter that because it's been like this since the world exists that we women are taught to be strong and just endure and just go on and just face it and just shut up and just be strong. So…

Leslie 33:08

I think it has a lot to do with, you know, like the time period that we grew up into, especially like as ear I guess late Gen X, early millennials, then we grew up in a very different time where it was just figure it out.

Lupe 33:22

Yeah. Yeah. And also we grew up in a society that didn't see addiction as as an illness. And now things changed. Now addiction is seen as an illness, any kind of addiction. It could be drugs, it could be alcohol, it could be playing in the casino, it could be anything, right? Nowadays is seen as an illness, the world changed and it's good. So let's go for the next question. One of the things I kept thinking about while reading was your daughter.

How do you protect a child from a reality that is already part of their life without teaching them that painful realities must simply be hidden? I would like you to tell me the exact moment when as a mother, you were standing and you had these two choices. Hide everything from her and maybe run away and start a new life in another state, or face it and make her live through that.

Leslie 34:28

I think honestly, the moment of his very first arrest was the moment that I decided I was going to tell her in an age appropriate way, right? Chris got arrested when Kayla was two. And I remember her asking where daddy was. And my initial thought was he's in big boy timeout. And so I never wanted to hide certain things from her. I knew what she was taking on. I watched it happen. And I think that's really kind of what made things so damn hard is I couldn't make the addiction disappear.

I couldn't change the fact that was just kind of part of her life. I was doing everything that I could to make sure that it didn't consume her. And so for me, that really meant talking about things that she could understand at a level that she could understand. I wasn't gonna give her every adult detail. You know, she didn't need to know that daddy's in jail. She didn't know what jail was. But I also wasn't gonna pretend that nothing was happening.

I let her have the really big feelings. I let her be angry, I let her be sad. She was allowed to love him and be upset with him. I was never gonna tell her how she was supposed to feel about any of it. I couldn't protect her from everything. God, I wish I could. And I couldn't pretend that it wasn't painful for her. I remember, you know, during the really long stretches when he was either in jail or in rehab, and she would ask me questions.

Then the best way that I could describe addiction when she was little was Daddy is sick in the head. Because when I said daddy's sick, right, she's like, well, just give him medicine. And so I know that phrase, I'm sure people are really going to judge that phrase, you know, daddy sick in the head. But that was the best way to explain to a child that I can't just give daddy medicine for this. Daddy's going somewhere where he can get help.

And they're going to, you know, help him that way, as opposed to a five-year-old thinking, Well, just take some medicine and daddy'll be great in the morning.

Lupe 36:42

That's true. Yeah, the ‘Daddy's sick in the head’ it makes even a person laugh, right? But how do you explain to a two-year-old or a four-year-old that daddy is addicted, right? So like the only thing that came to my mind reading your book was only like my children that they wanted to watch Shrek nonstop when they were little. That could be explaining as an addiction but they're so little that there's some words that are very hard to explain to a child and I think ‘sick in the head’ is the best.

But another thing is that you never made him become a villain. You were angry, you were in pain you were harmed you were dealing with the consequences of his actions, right? And the judgment I'm sure that family and friends and whoever, you're receiving showers of judgment from right and left. But how did you protect him? How did you preserve this thing of looking at him? While maintaining compassion and living through all this.

Leslie 37:56

You know, even now, looking back, I never made Chris a villain. I never wanted him to be the villain. I wrote it to kind of tell our story, and our story wasn't just about meth. He was a whole ass person. That was somebody that I fell in love with, built a family with, someone that, you know, I could still kind of see glimpses of even when things were really, really bad. And I don't think that compassion was harder then or while I was writing.

I think looking back, it was just as painful as hell. There were things that I really kind of had to sit with all over again, and there were a lot of things that still fucking hurt, but I wasn't ever gonna sugarcoat what happened, and I wasn't gonna turn him into some horrible person just because he did things that really fucking hurt us. He hurt me, he hurt Kayla. And I will never pretend that he didn't, but I don't hate him. I don't see him as a villain.

He's not a villain. I still absolutely love that man. I always will. And I think people expect me to look back and say, What the hell was I thinking? You know, I should have hated him. I just don't. I loved him then, I love him now, and I wasn't gonna change that part just to make the rest of the story easier for other people to understand because he is an amazing man. He really is. Without the addiction. Yeah. And…

Lupe 39:26

The drugs. Yeah, of course.

Leslie 39:29

It's hard because as much as he hurt us, right? As much bullshit as we went through. And it sounds crazy to say, but I don't think that I would go back and change any of it. I really, truly don't.

Lupe 39:44

This is very strong what you said now. But yeah, Every time you speak I just admire you more, to be honest with you. And if the person listening to us now, and I'm sure that the imperfect rebel listeners are smart people, they must understand that a person that is addicted to meth that it's one of the worst drugs that you can be addicted to. It wasn't he acting, it was meth acting. So of course that you being a smart woman with all the knowledge you have on the subject you were seeing meth you were seeing him when he was okay and that must have been extremely hard because when you are ignorant on the subject you are allowed you know to think whatever But when you know exactly what you're talking about and you know exactly what it is and you are not permitted that ignorance that sometimes can save your heart from a lot of pain, I think that it hurts even more.

Leslie 40:50

I think that's absolutely one hundred percent true. I think that if someone is ignorant to addiction or what that looks like, then it's very easy to write the person off saying they're crazy, they're abusive, they're terrible. And then those people become villains in the story, right? But watching him go from the person that he was into a shell of a person that I just didn't know. That was it was a really, really long goodbye.

Lupe 41:24

Yeah. And as a family system practitioner, what does addiction begin to organize inside a family? What roles do people slowly take on simply to keep everything functioning?

Leslie 41:35

I think addiction doesn't just change the person that's using. I think it really changes kind of how the entire family functions. In our house, I became the fixer. Bills, emergencies, decisions, whatever he needed, I handled it. And I think I was trying to keep some kind of normalcy for Kayla while everything else was falling apart, while everything else around her was very unpredictable. And she was adapting too. She was growing up in a world where addiction was just part of her everyday life.

I could let her talk about it. I could talk to her about it, let her have her feelings about it and try to keep everything from consuming her. But I couldn't make that aspect of it disappear, right? So again, I became the fixer. I don't think anybody really sits down and roles are passed out. I think you just kind of figure out how to survive. And after a while, that becomes how you function. I think the problem is that when the chaos stops, nobody really tells you that you can stop doing all of that shit.

I'm still the person who sees a problem and immediately starts trying to figure out how to fix it. Half the time, I've just kind of volunteered myself for it. And I think it depends on each family too, right? I think you're always going to have a fixer. I think you're always going to have the person that is addicted that kind of controls everything else around you. And the fixer is just supposed to clean it up.

Lupe 43:14

Yeah, but there is another problem also that I think that begins because we human beings don't get addicted only to things, but we also get addicted to emotions and actions and you get addicted to the fact that you need to fix something. When life settles after the storm, you are there sitting in the living room, everything is calm, and you start trying to find what to fix because you became addicted to always have to fix something. For example, I have a friend, I always tell her that she's addicted to problems.

So even when everything is perfectly going on, She always is trying to find the problem so she can speak about problems, so she can feel miserable, so she can complain. And I'm not saying that it's your case because I don't know you personally, but I know for example from my life that I also had a period of time where I had to, you know, be the fixer, that when calm arrived, I was addicted to fixing. So whatever little problem arrived, I wanted to fix it and I didn't let the other person even try to fix it because come on, I am the fixer.

Shut up, I can do it. You know.

Leslie 44:38

Exactly. I can fix it. It's easier for me. Just let me handle it because I can control everything. If I'm fixing the problem, I can control it.

Lupe 44:46

Yeah, because you have the experience. Yeah. You have the experience. You know, I've been through hell, you haven't, I have the experience. And it becomes an addiction that it's hard to get away from, you know, unfortunately. You don't relax. You are continuously there. Ready, you know, ready. So…

Leslie 45:07

Correct. And you know, it's funny that you say that because that's actually very similar to what my second book is about.

Lupe 45:15

Yeah, I need to read that and you have to come back. So later in the memoir, we encounter a very different kind of relationship. What moved me was not simply that you found love again, but the form that love takes, trust, freedom, space, and being allowed to remain yourself. After living for so long in survival mode, was healthy love difficult to recognize or even difficult to trust? Did peace ever feel suspicious at first?

Leslie 45:43

You know, I can handle chaos like a champ, right? But peace, man, peace is really, really…

Lupe 45:46

Yeah. Hm. Yeah, peace.

Leslie 45:50

Suspicious for me. That's not something that I knew…

Lupe 45:52

And scary.

Leslie 45:53

And scary. And it's not something that I really knew how to navigate. I did a ton of self sabotaging. I pushed Josh away a lot. He gave me, like you said, a lot of trust, freedom, and space to kind of be myself. And I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop because when things were good I questioned it. I knew how to survive in chaos. I didn't know how to live in peace.

Lupe 46:20

Yeah. Yeah, I understand you completely. When you started writing about Josh, I had to stop for a moment and I was like Gosh, I need to prepare myself for this. And I hope that Josh has a lot of patience and a lot of love because it won't be easy. It won't be easy. And then I went.

Leslie 46:41

No no, I am definitely a very hard person to deal with. Totally not gonna lie. I am absolutely a handful.

Lupe 46:47

But I think that not even that, but you know, I imagined him walking into yours and Kayla's life like walking on eggshells and like you know, asking, you know, permission and always having to show that he was different and worthy because the space that you and your daughter that you created for your daughter and also your daughter created for you. It was a space of protecting one another, giving strength to one another. And so him arriving, he must have like he must be a very good person, also because you must have been like studying all his DNA, all his actions, all his gestures, all the words.

As a mother, I can only imagine like you've been through all this, you were there X-raying this man like every fucking second. So if…

Leslie 47:47

[Unclear in supplied transcript.]

Lupe 47:50

So if you then decided that yes, he was worthy, then he must be fucking amazing.

Leslie 47:56

He has probably the patience of a saint. In the very early part of our relationship there were a lot of issues. And a lot of that stemmed from some other addiction issues, not with Josh, but some other addiction issues that he was also dealing with on his side and that we were dealing with in our household that didn't make it into the book, if I'm being honest. And that is probably a whole other side of our life. That is probably an entirely different book.

I could probably write three books on that one. I think he learned from me. I think that the addiction issues that he was dealing with, and so I'll touch on it briefly, but when he moved down here, because he was from another state, so when he moved down here, his daughter, who he adopted out of CPS care when she was like two days old, very shortly after he moved down here, she moved down here as well. And there were a lot of issues.

There were a lot of mental health issues. I think she was thirteen when we got her down here. And she was dealing with a lot of addiction issues that he was unaware of. And so that caused a lot of arguments between us because I could see what was happening. And you know, as a parent, you don't want to believe that, right? You don't want to believe that this is something that my child is dealing with. And that was, I think, a hard realization for him to really come to terms with.

And so not only were we dealing with Chris's addiction issues, but we were also dealing with his daughter's addiction issues and the mental health aspects that came along with that.

Lupe 49:50

And how is she now?

Leslie 49:52

If I'm being very honest, I have not seen or spoken to her in a couple years. She is still using or was in active addiction the last time that I talked to her. I think that the last time Josh spoke with her, she was living in a sober living facility. And so I hope and pray that she follows through. She was a child when everything was happening, right? So as a mom, I still had that compassion for her despite things that were done, were said were planned.

That was also a very, very scary time in our life. And I know that she doesn't remember a lot of it. But that was something that was very hard as a family to process.

Lupe 50:45

Can imagine. But let's go back to your relationship with Josh. I think that as you mentioned, like a possible book about that. I think it would help a lot of people, you know, to read how do you restart a life after going through the love of your life taken away by addiction practically. So…

Leslie 51:10

It's definitely not an easy journey. I'll say that. It's definitely not an easy journey. And you have to do a lot of self-reflection and self-work on yourself because like I said, you know, the person that is not using really has to recover too. There's not a lot of supports out there for the family members of addiction. I know that there's certain support groups, but I don't think that they go in depth as they could.

Lupe 51:41

Yeah. I think that the family is very much sometimes judged worse than the person that is facing the addiction. For example, here in Europe I see that's the fault of the parents, he lost his job, the this economy, but I never s I've never seen compassion towards the family. It seems like the family is judged. It's your fault. As a mother you must have done something wrong, you know.

Leslie 52:21

Or as a mother, it's your fault that your children are seeing it. It's your fault that your children are going through it because you continue to bring him back. And it's the same with dads. You know, it as a father, it's your fault because you continue to allow mom around. And I think it really is an impossible choice that families are faced with. And when you don't know how to navigate addiction or even the system, then I think families can drown.

Lupe 52:48

It's a very big problem, this addiction. The drugs are a very big problem. So what happened since people began reading the book that you did not expect?

Leslie 53:00

You know, I really don't think that I was prepared for how many people were going to tell me that they saw themselves in my story. I've had people tell me that I put words to things that they could never explain. I've had people tell me that they have been carrying things around for years and some of those conversations have been really, really incredibly personal. But what really, really got me was hearing from children of addicts that said they saw themselves in Kayla.

And I've had people tell me that reading her story healed pieces of them. And I think that really that hit me hard because I knew what Kayla lived through. I watched it happen. I knew what I was trying to protect her from. But I don't think I don't think I expected people to read about my little girl and really recognize the child that they used to be. It's funny, again, it's funny, but it's not funny. It hasn't just been people that have been affected by addiction.

People have really connected with the survival part of it too. Being the strong one, being the fixer, handling everything, losing yourself somewhere in the middle of it. I started writing because I needed somewhere to put my own shit. I don't think I ever expected complete strangers to reach out and tell me that they found pieces of themselves in it.

Lupe 54:33

Each one of us has different lives, right? They're different but somehow very similar. We became friends on Facebook, and for the Rebels, it's been about a month, forty days, that we've been chatting like we've known each other forever. I consider you my friend now. I saw the group you have on Facebook and was reading the members' posts. The stories are similar, like ninety..

Leslie 55:17

Some of it.

Lupe 55:17

Percent similar. It only changes if it's a man, if it's a woman, if it's an older woman, older man, if it's the mother, if it's the daughter, if it's but they're all the same. And it really surprised me.

Leslie 55:30

Same [unclear in supplied transcript].

Lupe 55:31

I was reading something that really stayed with me. This man wrote about his girlfriend worried that if she would go on treatment they would take her children away and you were responding to him. And I was, My God. It's real shit.

Leslie 55:49

It really is. And I try my best to respond to every post. And there's a lot that I miss. Life is life. And unfortunately, you know, I can't always be around in the group, but when I do respond, then I want to make sure that people aren't being judged for their situations. I want to make sure that they know they aren't the only ones that have gone through it or felt like it or when they feel like they're absolutely drowning and they're just trying to keep their head above water.

Especially when it comes to the kids, because I find myself really putting on my CPS hat so that they understand the repercussions of choices, right? Because every choice has a consequence, whether that's a good one or a bad one.

Lupe 56:40

Of course. Yeah. Every action has its reaction.

Leslie 56:41

Correct. And I think one of the biggest life lessons that, you know, my dad has taught me over the years is only you can prevent forest fires, right? And if you're born in the eighties or early nineties, then you understand the slogan. But it's also probably one of the biggest life lessons because I can give you the tools, I can give you the resources, but only you can change it. And you're only gonna change it when you're ready.

Lupe 57:08

Yeah, and I saw your answer to this particular situation. And there I saw the Leslie professional. I could see how hard and how important, how difficult your job is. Because you're dealing with lives and whatever word that you say wrong might change the future. Of that entire family and especially of the children that are involved.

Leslie 57:33

Every decision that I made was a life that I affected.

Lupe 57:36

Yeah. If you could sit beside the Leslie who was still living through all of this, what would you have wished somebody had told her?

Leslie 57:44

I think I'd tell her I know why you keep trying. I wouldn't tell her that she should know better. She did know better. I wouldn't tell her to stop loving him because she couldn't. And I wouldn't tell her that none of it's going to work. Because honestly, I'm not really sure that she could have lived with herself if she didn't try everything that she could. I'd tell her that those glimpses of Chris that she keeps seeing are real. She's not imagining them, but seeing him sometimes doesn't always mean that he can stay.

And I wish I could make her understand that while she's fighting so hard not to lose him, she's disappearing. I think that truthfully I would just sit with her because everybody had advice, everybody had opinions, everybody told her what they think that she should do from the outside. And she didn't need one more person telling her what she already knew. She needed somebody to see how fucking hard she was trying and tell her that she couldn't save him. And if she couldn't save him, that didn't mean that she failed, even though it feels like she did.

Lupe 58:52

Yeah. Sometimes people they see us going through difficult times and they think that advice is help. But no, in that moment all we need is a hand on top of our hand, a hug, a cuddle, and silence. Sometimes just sitting next to the person that is facing a very bad moment, just sitting next to the person. In silence, it's everything that the person needs.

Leslie 59:17

Very much so. I've translated that to how I coach people because you know I also coach people for a living now. And so when I'm coaching, then the entire purpose of coaching is never to give advice, it's to be the mirror. And that's similar to what I do in the group, right? When people are asking for advice. I'm going to be the mirror so that you can figure out your choices for yourself. I'm never gonna tell somebody that they need to leave.

I'm never gonna tell somebody that they need to stay. But most people never see themselves the way that others see them.

Lupe 1:00:00

Totally. And now the hard question, Leslie. Chris said always and you answered forever or vice versa. After everything you lived through, everything you wrote and everything that came afterwards, what those two words mean to you now?

Leslie 1:00:16

They mean exactly what they've always meant. Always Forever. I still love Chris, I always will. Our marriage ended, our lives changed, but that doesn't mean that the love disappeared. So when he said always and I said forever, I meant it. I still do.

Lupe 1:00:30

Leslie, do you believe that a person that is addicted to meth that it's one of the worst drugs? Is it possible that this person, yeah? You've seen it.

Leslie 1:00:40

Can they recover? Absolutely. Meth…

Lupe 1:00:43

Yeah. Yeah. So…

Leslie 1:00:46

Has a lower recovery rate, a much lower recovery rate than I think any other drug, but it is absolutely possible as long as they put in the work. And it's definitely not a choice, and truthfully, a years ago, many, many years ago. I think when all of it started, I truly believed that addiction was a choice, right? Very similar to everybody else who doesn't deal with addiction. I believed that addiction was a choice. And I think that for people that are able to recover, there is something inside them that they no longer want to live the way that they're living.

And they put in the work. They make the changes, and so does their support system. And just because you recover, right, doesn't mean that you're no longer an addict. Because those have that recovered, a lot of them still fight for that sobriety every single day. And I think they are probably some of the strongest people, and they don't get enough credit for that.

Lupe 1:01:59

I agree with you. I also think that who is recovering from any kind of addiction, I think these are the bravest people, the strongest people, because it's a decision that they make every day to stay strong and not fall. And it's very hard with life going and the world going as it going as it is going to make that choice to stay strong. Because it's hard. Life life is hard, especially to it's hard because you have the judgment of the people every day.

Most of them end up in jail, so then it's even harder to find a job, to restart a life. So it's very hard for them to keep the strength and go on. Yeah, hard. So Leslie, I'm sure that we are we are having people that are going through addiction or that have people that they love that are going through this life with a person that is addicted. Give them a message from a person like you that lived at all, that knows exactly what it is.

Leslie 1:03:03

You're not imagining it at all. Things can change, but you can't hope somebody into sobriety. You can't love them into sobriety. And love is not endurance. You shouldn't need to endure and continuously endure because you love them. Sometimes the greatest gift that you can give them is walking away, unfortunately. Because at some point you have to save yourself. And while their needs are typically higher or their crisis around them is typically more, don't let yourself disappear from your own story.

Lupe 1:03:42

That's beautiful. Thank you for this. It's very beautiful. Wow, Leslie, so I asked you all the questions. What a ride it was.

Leslie 1:03:53

Definitely I didn't make it long without crying.

Lupe 1:03:56

Well I can tell you that I have tissues in my hand, the Kleenex. And yeah. Listening to you, I could listen to you like for hours. But it's mind opening, heart opening, and it really shows what love is. And this is what I wrote also to you that reading your book, I could feel love in its reality. Raw love, how it is, the good, the bad and the ugly parts of love. And if there is one thing I know 100%, it's that you know how to love.

Leslie 1:04:34

I try.

Lupe 1:04:34

No, you know. You definitely know. You are one of those rare people that are born with the gift of giving love, showing love without asking nothing in return. And it's very rare. And I really admire you. I told you this, I wrote you this, and after speaking with you, I can tell you that I only admire you more.

Leslie 1:04:59

Thank you. [Unclear transition in supplied transcript.]

Lupe 1:05:00

Yes, yes, yes, let's have our fifteen minutes of yay, so we can laugh a little bit after so many tears.

Leslie 1:05:12

Was there anything in Always Forever that really made you stop and look at something in your own life a little bit differently?

Lupe 1:05:18

You were the mother that showed the reality, you were very sincere with your daughter, I wasn't. I am the typical Italian mother that puts their kids, her kids, inside this crystal bubble and protects them from everything. So for you to have an idea, My kids when they were little they never saw me crying. If we had some kind of financial issue or a little bit less of money, they didn't notice. I was the kind of mother that no matter what was happening From the moment they were awake till the moment they went to sleep, I was only smiles and happiness and cheerful.

And when I was 100% sure that they were sleeping, I allowed myself to fall. It was when I cried, when I sat with bills, when I spoke with my husband about problems or issues, but I was always that person that showed perfect. And that, girl, hit me on the ass. You know, in Italy we say that the tongue is the belt of your ass that you pay, you know, with your tongue. And I paid. And I paid a lot. Because then my children grew and they became these very secure people, you know, that think that everything is possible, nothing is impossible, and that no doesn't exist and everything is ideal.

And now that they are young adults, I'm very scared of that because I find myself thinking, my God. What is gonna happen when life is gonna slap them on the face? They go on university, work and they will start their work life and I am not there, you know, to shout at their manager, at their bosses I am a big journaler. So three months four months ago I wrote on my journal my daughter has a very big ego. She thinks that she can do anything and everything, but she chose a profession that is very hard.

And when she's gonna be put in front of a person that has a bigger ego. You know, and is gonna slap her on the face. When she's gonna fall for the first time in her life, how is she going to react? What is gonna happen and so now I am very scared of their first failure for you to have an idea my daughter is dyslexic And I never told her so the teachers at school I told her now she knows, But when she was little, the teachers and the psychologists at school, they called me, look, she's dyslexic.

No, she's not. I was that kind of mother, you know. No, she's not. She's perfect. She's…

Leslie 1:08:27

It's perfect.

Lupe 1:08:28

Shy. She's shy. She doesn't want to read in front of the class because she is shy. That's it. And so I raised her like, yeah, you're shy. You don't need to read in front of the people. Nobody can tell you what you have to do. You do what you want. You don't want to read, you don't read. Don't worry, I'll sign the note from the teacher. She can go fuck herself. And on one side I was very happy that I did that because she grew up with no excuses.

I'm perfect. I'm perfectly perfect. I can do anything. I don't do it because I'm shy. And nowadays she studies on the best university. That it's very renowned here in Eastern Europe to get in, it's very hard. She's there. She's going to be a lawyer in some years. So in one side it's good because I gave her no excuses not to, you know, do whatever the other children would do. On the other side, I didn't permit her to say, I have to study hard because it's hard.

So I said you have to study hard because it's hard, not because you have any problem. I didn't permit her to say, okay, I will study on my own pace because I'm dyslexic. No, I just said, No, everybody studies hard. I also studied hard. If I made it, you can also make it. I gave her no excuses. I grew both of them like in a way that you're the best in the world. Everything that you do are the best. You're the most beautiful, you're the most intelligent, you're the most typical Italian mother, you know?

And reading your book, I was like, my God. And having written that thing that I told you on my journal months ago, I was like, gosh, maybe I should have shown them more what is the reality of the world. So in some years, Leslie, in ten years, I will tell you if they fell, how they reacted, and if I will be feeling guilty about it.

Leslie 1:10:24

That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that seriously. Although I will also tell you, Mom guilt…

Lupe 1:10:29

Thank you for the question.

Leslie 1:10:31

Is a bitch. All the way around, Mom guilt is a bitch.

Lupe 1:10:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also all this romanticizing around motherhood I always say stop romanticizing motherhood. You know, mothers are not perfect. We are a human being. We are human…

Leslie 1:10:43

'Cause it's hard. It's so hard.

Lupe 1:10:46

Beings. And we make mistakes, we are humans, so…

Leslie 1:10:52

At the hospital, you don't get your child and a child manual.

Lupe 1:10:55

No, I wish, I wish. Also the problem is that we are raising children like till they're six years old, they are practically you. They are your clone. But after six years old, they start developing their own character, making their own decisions, becoming their own humans, right? And sometimes you don't like what they're becoming, you know. You like blue and they like black. You like coke and they like Fanta, they become totally a different human being, you know. And sometimes you don't like the decisions they make, their character, the way they talk.

You know, we are humans, and it's hard. It's hard to be a mother. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life.

Leslie 1:11:37

Same, absolutely same.

Lupe 1:11:38

We give birth to a child thinking that it's our child, but it's not. We are giving birth to a human being that is gonna grow up and it's gonna make its own decision and it's gonna become its own human. And you never know what it's gonna become. And it's gonna become independently of you. But whatever it does right, it's this person is amazing. Whatever he does wrong, mother. It's the mother's fault. So it's a very hard…

Leslie 1:12:07

It's always mom's fault.

Lupe 1:12:08

Yeah, it's never the fathers, it's always the mothers.

Leslie 1:12:10

[Unclear in supplied transcript.]

Lupe 1:12:11

Yeah, of course. But it's beautiful on the other side because you get to see the human that you put into this world grow up and become its own self. And even when you don't agree with what they do, you still love them and you still admire them. And it's very beautiful.

Leslie 1:12:31

You know, Kayla's seventeen now, right? And when she was little, I made her promise me that she would never grow up. And so now she's like, you know, mom, I'm a senior, right? And I'm graduating. And I told her, I said, Yes, and I also know that you're a liar because you promised me that you were never gonna grow up. She was like, Mom, I was like three. I don't care if you were three, you promise.

Lupe 1:12:52

Yeah, you're not keeping your promise and it's so hard, isn't it? I think it's even harder because my son, he's grown up, he lives with his girlfriend and I'm happy for him, you know. But with a daughter, it's totally different. She's away studying in university. With the daughters, we mothers, it's totally different. I look at her and I and I wish she was that little girl.

Leslie 1:13:17

Yeah. And that's how we look at them, right? It doesn't matter what age they are, you're still two.

Lupe 1:13:18

So yeah, it's very hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. The two years old is the best age. The best memories that I have is with both of them when they were from two till they went to school, till six. I think it's the best age for children. It's they are the funniest, they are the loveliest, they are just amazing. I miss having little toddlers at home.

Leslie 1:13:44

You know, I have days and then I'm like, yeah no, I'm good. Mm mm. Don't have the energy for that anymore. So you've read a lot of stories and you've talked to a lot of people. Has there ever been a book or a conversation that stayed with you long after it was over?

Lupe 1:13:59

Well, before the Imperfect Rebel podcast I had another podcast when I was still living in the UK. Then I closed that podcast. And I had this conversation with this mother. She was the mother of like eight kids in Utah. She was from a religion that it's common there that Mormon maybe. I think so. And it really stayed with me. When you see these people that are pure calm. She had eight kids, yeah. And when we spoke, it was about, I don't know, seven years ago.

And some of her children were still small. And we were talking about mental health and about positivity. Eight years ago it was very big this thing of mentalization, visualization and keeping the positivity and stuff like that. And I remember she telling me how she started the life with her husband that they practically had never had nothing and having all these children and what everything they went through. And the job that they were doing, her husband practically was a coach in jails, helping men, you know, recover from whatever thing that happened in their life and then restart a new life.

And I remember that it was a mess. Her house was a mess. Not like mess, like things all over the place, but like children running around and screaming and playing and eating. Like you know, like a household with eight kids, right? And I remember that she was sitting there talking to me. Such in a peaceful way. She was like so peaceful. I was almost going bonkers, yeah, with her with all that was happening around her. And she was just sitting there, speaking with me, like if she would be sitting on a cloud, like nothing is happening around her.

And then we started the podcast and I remember saying, Okay, then I'll press play and in five seconds we start. And she was like, Okay, just turn around. And she just went to the kids. Children, Mama will start working. In that fucking moment, her children just sit down. So on the back there was this big sofa, yeah, they just sit down. Each one of them grabbed a book and she said it like this, Leslie. Children, Mama will start working. Okay, mama.

Each one of them grabbed a book. The smallest one must have been like four. The older one took the four-year-old. She sat down with him. She opened a book and it was silence. Silence.

Leslie 1:16:54

Well now.

Lupe 1:16:54

We recorded a podcast after the podcast. We continued. And I asked her. How did you do that? You were speaking, and like the world around you was going bonkers. And then suddenly, with the deepest calm in the world, you just told them that you were gonna start working and they just stopped. And you never raised your voice. They were screaming, you didn't even raise your voice. How did they hear you? And she was like, Because a soft voice in the middle of chaos is stronger than a scream.

I was like, what the fuck? And that stayed with me. And that day I realized that when there are many voices, many things around us, we tended to raise our voice. We tend also to get nervous. Right. And you have to do something. But she taught me a lesson that I took then forward, not even in my own life, but also at work. That the most silent person is always the strongest in the room. And that went with me and it stayed with me.

And she was completely right. Because every time I raised my voice, every time I didn't have that control of myself, more chaos was done, right? But every time that I was able to control myself and just speak in a calm way, with a controlled volume of my voice, that was when peace, you know slowly started to arrive, you know, in the room. So I think that's the strongest thing that happened to me by speaking with people.

Leslie 1:18:31

I absolutely love that. If you weren't doing what you're doing now, what do you think you'd be doing?

Lupe 1:18:39

If I didn't have to like work I would I would be somewhere or in Croatia, in a house in Croatia, or in a house in the woods near a lake with my doggies reading. Here. I have five dogs, so I would be there reading, writing, but without you know, publishing anything, just writing on my blog and reading. I really love what I'm doing now. But yeah, probably like in fifteen years that's where you're gonna find me, somewhere in a house. Yeah, in a house surrounded by trees with no neighbors, which here is still possible, and near a lake or in Croatia near the sea, peaceful, just reading, writing some things and I want to finish my life, you know, just calm.

Silence.

Leslie 1:19:43

You know, it's funny that you say that too, because if I could imagine anywhere, I would be away from everybody. Like I want no neighbors at all.

Lupe 1:19:55

Yeah. Yeah. People tend to be very negative and tend to hate a lot. They are very dramatic and I am quite sick of it, to be honest. That's why, for example, we also spoke about this. It's very hard for me to be so present on social media. Because every time you post, every time you go see posts, you see a lot of hate. Now, for example, around the publishing industry, around indie authors, gosh, there is so much hate. And I am a person that I don't share hate at all.

Like I do this as a profession. I review books as a profession. That's what I do, right? But I would never, for example, review a book writing horrible things. And unfortunately, on this industry and the publishing, but also in all the industries. There is a lot of hate. People are very mad. People are very angry. And unfortunately, it's only growing because I see that every day it's bigger and bigger. And that's why I wanted to create this safe space for indie authors, but also for like this bigger authors to have a safe space, you know, they send me their book, they know, everybody knows that I won't hate on the book.

If I didn't like the book, I'm gonna tell the person, look, I read the first two chapters, it's not really my thing. It's not my thing. But I am sure that it's the thing of many people. It's just not mine. Please send me your next book. I am never gonna review a book and give it one star, one star and a half, two stars, there is one that I gave three stars, but I said why. And it's only on my blog.

It's not on Goodreads, it's not on Amazon, it's only on my blog. And on my blog I can write it. Yeah. But I hate seeing the hate around indie authors. I hate it. I see some reviews that are really not necessary. Yeah. Also because you are playing with the dream of the person. Yeah. People need to understand that behind the book there is the heart, soul, and dreams of another person. And you always need to remember, I am not a religious person, but I truly believe that you should never do to somebody else what you don't wish upon yourself.

And I want people that are listening to us to remember indie authors are not Sarah J. Maas, Rebecca Yarros, Colleen Hoover, these big authors. If you put a two-star, a three-star, and a very bad review, a one-star, this can end the dream of a person. Not only can it break the heart of the person in such million ways that the person is never gonna write again. And the fact that you didn't like the book doesn't mean that this book is bad.

Because in Italy we say each one of us we have a butthole, but each butthole is different. So I might not like it but somebody else will like it and by doing something like this you are preventing somebody else from reading it and maybe loving it. And you also need to remember that you are not allowed to break people's heart. That should be a rule.

Leslie 1:23:23

I love that because you're right. There's a ton of hate. And indie authors, man, there's so much work that goes into it because you have to learn how to edit, you have to learn how to publish, you have to learn how to do your covers. You have to learn how to market yourself. And let me tell you, I am terrible at marketing myself. Absolutely terrible.

Lupe 1:23:43

Me too. Me too. Me too. It's very hard for us, especially for millennials, to do videos, to do reels, and it's also hard to have the time to do it because if you think about like you work eight hours a day, you coach people, you have a family. If you think about me, I am an author, so I write books. When am I gonna find the time to make videos and reels?

Leslie 1:24:09

I'm trying this whole post once a day thing. And that's a whole other job in itself.

Lupe 1:24:16

It is. It is because for example, if you use Canva to make a beautiful post, it takes at least half an hour, forty-five minutes to make a beautiful post. Plus the time to download, plus the time tada, it takes time. Then if you use AI, you are accused of using AI to do your post. People presume that you wrote your book with AI. They don't understand how AI works. So they immediately, she made AI write the book, you know. You want to post, but you don't have the time.

Sometimes you don't have the skills because Canva is not easy. You have to have the skills. Then…

Leslie 1:24:53

No, it is so not easy at all.

Lupe 1:24:56

Yeah. You don't have a PR office on your back, you know, like Sarah J. Maas would have, or Rebecca Yarros, Colleen Hoover, these big ones, right? They have people that build their posts, give it to them, and they just post it. We don't have these kind of people. Sometimes I will write something by hand, I will take a picture and I will post it. You cannot say that's AI because I wrote it by hand. Stop the hate. And then you go to threads, for example, to promote your book.

But it scares the shit out of me to do that, to be honest with you, Leslie. And you know why? Because I know that there is some people that will read your book just to be hateful. And that's…

Leslie 1:25:34

[Unclear in supplied transcript.]

Lupe 1:25:35

I saw it with some indie authors that we speak. The book is amazing. There is nothing to hate on and people were hating on. And that's why I created this safe space for indie authors and for whoever author that wants to send me their book. Because they can be sure 100% that if I didn't like the book, I am not going to be hateful. Because I understand what's behind that.

Leslie 1:25:59

I think that I've seen that a lot. Where there will be a bad review and then that prompts somebody else to read the book to also give a bad review. And man, even just a few lines for an indie author, you don't have to write a paragraph, but even a few lines makes a huge difference in a review.

Lupe 1:26:22

Yes, it does. But you know what we should do? So let's say that if you don't have anything on the 25th of October. That the twenty-fifth of October, I already read your second book. You read my book, and we do a podcast where half of it is gonna be me asking questions about your second book, and the other half you asking me questions about Before October Ends.

Leslie 1:26:48

I love that.

Lupe 1:26:49

We could do that, no? We have practically one month. Thirty five days. I think we could manage that.

Leslie 1:26:54

I absolutely love that. We can do that.

Lupe 1:26:56

Yeah, so rebels, you listen to this. This is the plan. I'm gonna put it on the calendar, the twenty fifth, same time we're gonna be here talking. How about that?

Leslie 1:27:06

I think that's perfect.

Lupe 1:27:07

Okay, I wrote it down. Now let's go to our quickies so then we can end our podcast. We're two hours yapping, Leslie. But we knew that. We knew that this was gonna happen, remember? We said it. My God.

Leslie 1:27:20

Yeah. You know, so much for that hour, right?

Lupe 1:27:24

Yes. Now it's lunchtime at yours and here is dinner time. So first question of the quickies morning writer or night writer?

Leslie 1:27:35

Absolutely night.

Lupe 1:27:36

Notebook or computer?

Leslie 1:27:38

Absolutely computer. Nobody can read my handwriting. It's like chicken scratch. You know, that's the wonderful part, right? I can read it and Michaela…

Lupe 1:27:41

So you're not even you. Not even you…

Leslie 1:27:50

Can read it. So when I write school notes, then they have to have her read it to them.

Lupe 1:27:53

That's amazing. You know what? I sometimes not even I can read what I wrote, but I first need to write it on the notebook. So I'm a big journaler, and first I even the posts, every review and every post that you see on Imperfect Rebel, it was written first by hand on my journal. So AI witch hunters, fuck yourself because I have proofs. It was written first on my diary, okay bitches? Shut the fuck up. So say it with me, Leslie.

Shut the fuck up.

Leslie 1:28:31

Shut the fuck up. Yeah, let me tell you.

Lupe 1:28:36

Silence or music while you write?

Leslie 1:28:38

Music or TV, I have to have background noise because ADHD is a bitch.

Lupe 1:28:43

You know that me too. My husband is always, how can you work with such a mess? And I'm like, the voices in my head cannot work in silence, okay?

Leslie 1:28:54

And it's controlled chaos, but if one thing is moved, I'm gonna know exactly when it's moved because I know where everything is. And so my husband laughs at me because there's a lot of times where I'm watching TV and I'm on my phone and I'm on my computer and he's like, Can you just pick one? Absolutely not.

Lupe 1:29:13

Okay, what kind of music do you listen to while you're writing?

Leslie 1:29:16

Ooh. I am very much a mood kind of music person and so I do anything and everything from country to rock to pop. I don't do classical and I don't do a lot of rap. If I do rap I have to actually understand what they're saying as opposed to it just being jumbled. Yeah.

Lupe 1:29:34

Yeah, rap is another thing. Yeah. So I'll tell you a secret that I didn't tell anybody. Before October Ends was written entirely listening to The Tortured Poets Department of Taylor Swift.

Leslie 1:29:50

Really?

Lupe 1:29:51

Yes, it went on loop.

Leslie 1:29:53

That's perfect.

Lupe 1:29:54

Yes, so when you're gonna be reading, if you want, you put The Tortured Poets Department because it was written listening to that.

Leslie 1:30:05

That is now the soundtrack of the book.

Lupe 1:30:07

Yeah, it is. And then after you read it, I'm going to tell you which song was like the one that I was writing and crying. Because, guys, Before October Ends is not a romance. OK, it's a psychological fiction. Yeah. OK, let's go because everybody thinks it's a romance. Even one of my best friends thought that it was a romance and she didn't speak with me for seven days after she read it. She was like, I love the book, but you're such a bitch and I need 10 days.

I don't wanna speak with you for 10 days. I was like, okay, but I like the book. And I was like, okay, fine. Seven days later, one week later, she wrote to me, why did you do that? You have to explain. And when is book two coming? You're such a bitch. So yeah.

Leslie 1:30:55

I love that.

Lupe 1:30:56

So when you're reading, do you like memoir or fiction?

Leslie 1:31:00

It totally depends on the mood and the topic. So there are some memoirs that I just can't do. And there are some memoirs that I absolutely fall in love with, you know, like Dave Pelzer's A Child Called It series. When I read that, and I was probably in my teens when I read it, I sobbed so hard. And now as an adult who has gone through an entire child protective service career. I think that book hits me so much harder. And then when I need light and airy, then it's totally fiction.

Or a psychological thriller. Or I do sometimes, but it depends on how…

Lupe 1:31:40

All right, do you like fantasy? Do you like fantasy? Yeah.

Leslie 1:31:45

It's written.

Lupe 1:31:47

Who is your favorite author? Yeah, me too.

Leslie 1:31:47

True crime, I love true crime. I don't know that I have a favorite.

Lupe 1:31:53

I don't know, also favorite, favorite. Don't know, lately I've been reading a lot of Alice Feeney. She writes these psychological thrillers. But also Diana Wilkinson, I love her. I reviewed one of her books. My God, I love her. But I was shit scared reading that book. That bitch made me scared. I was two o'clock in the morning. I was like, what is that sound? What is this?

Leslie 1:32:16

Let me go check my doors.

Lupe 1:32:18

Fucking hell, I was so scared. Yeah, because, you know, chicken shit. So do you?

Leslie 1:32:24

That's okay, I am too, because I can't watch scary movies like at all. At all.

Lupe 1:32:28

Yeah, yeah, me too. Horror movies, not at all. Not at all.

Leslie 1:32:31

Not at all.

Lupe 1:32:32

I don't even know why I read psychological thrillers because I'm chicken shit. So I'm like, bitch, what the fuck is your problem? Don't read that. But I love…

Leslie 1:32:39

Don't read that.

Lupe 1:32:41

Alice Feeney. I love Alice Feeney. I love Diana Wilkinson. I love.. And then, know, fantasy. I'm a big fantasy girl. I love my dragons. So.. Yeah.

Leslie 1:32:52

I do love my dragons. And my werewolves.

Lupe 1:32:56

Do you write first? Yeah, of course. Come on. But come on, we grew up with Twilight, no? So come on. We have to. So, okay, do you write first and edit later or edit constantly as you go?

Leslie 1:33:07

I edit as I go.

Lupe 1:33:08

My God, you're the second author in one month that tells me this. How do you guys do it? I probably will do that now.

Leslie 1:33:13

I think it makes things easier for me. Because then, you know, toward the end of the book, I can do one or two more full passes with edits, but most of it is already tightened and done and fixed before I get to the end.

Lupe 1:33:31

Yeah. And I made the mistake with Before October Ends that I wrote this book in 40 days, working 12 hours a day. I was writing like I had, you know, a monster wanting to eat me and my life dependent on writing this fucking book. And then I spent months editing, feeling sorry for myself and hating myself why I didn't edit as I wrote it, Because then I had like 400 pages to edit and I was crying. So For the second book I'm gonna edit as I go.

Where…

Leslie 1:34:04

Edit as you go.

Lupe 1:34:05

Do you feel? Yeah, of course. Where do you feel most peace? Most at peace?

Leslie 1:34:10

My bed.

Lupe 1:34:11

Me too. I could stay in bed all day reading, writing. My God, I…

Leslie 1:34:14

Yep, absolutely.

Lupe 1:34:16

Love it. Just bring me food and Coke Zero.

Leslie 1:34:19

Just bring me food and even if I'm, you know, hangry at that point, just throw food at me and run away screaming. But my bed.

Lupe 1:34:28

Yeah. Yes, the bed is the best place. I totally agree with you. What is one ordinary thing that makes you happy these days?

Leslie 1:34:35

Bed rotting and I am so not even sorry about it.

Lupe 1:34:40

I love that. And I love that when you have older kids, you can just rot. They even like it when you're not around. They are rotting in bed. Love it. And what are you reading now? Watch out with the answer, Leslie.

Leslie 1:34:56

So because life is life, then I actually haven't had a chance to read in a minute and…

Lupe 1:35:02

Well, you have to read now because we've got an appointment. Now you have a deadline, now you have to.

Leslie 1:35:04

And now I have to because now I have a deadline. I miss my reading and it's so sad.

Lupe 1:35:14

You know what, every time I'm in a reading slump, which I am now, but I didn't have the time, I read Weyward. So every time I'm on a reading slump, I read Weyward. This book gets me out of a reading slump immediately. It's the story of three women in three different times. It's a short book and it's gorgeous. Love it. Remember, don't give me three stars. Because if you give me three stars as soon as the foreigners are allowed in United States, I'll come okay…

Leslie 1:35:46

You're coming to find me? That's okay, I'll give you my address.

Lupe 1:35:51

If you make pancakes for me, I'll come, definitely. I'll risk getting arrested and deported somewhere. [Unclear phrase in supplied transcript.] Seriously, I'll risk it for pancakes, because that's my favorite thing. Gosh.

Leslie 1:36:09

[Unclear phrase in supplied transcript.] I haven't had pancakes in so long.

Lupe 1:36:10

Sorry, say that again. My God, you should because you guys have that mix, that mixing powder. You just mix it with water and then, my God, I miss that. I studied in an American school in high school and one of the mummies of my friend used to make pancakes every time I slept there and they bought these powders every time somebody from the United States came visit them, he came with a trolley full of it. So I loved it so much.

And here they don't sell this thing, this mix of powder that you guys have there.

Leslie 1:36:43

Really?

Lupe 1:36:44

But the maple syrup, yes. But I love that maple syrup, you know, in that long plastic bottle. Gosh. I don't know the name, but yeah, it was my favorite thing. So every time I think about United States, I see the pancakes.

Leslie 1:37:01

Pancakes.

Lupe 1:37:02

The pancakes.

Leslie 1:37:03

It's valid. It's completely valid.

Lupe 1:37:05

So, okay, Leslie. So we arrive at two hours and 10 minutes. I told you already everything I think about you, but I'm gonna say it again. I admire the shit out of you. And I'm very happy that you wrote to me and that in this 40 days, two months maybe, we became friends, because I really admire you. You are a very strong woman, but also very happy and very funny. And our chats, like if somebody would read our chats, they would understand what kind of people we…

Leslie 1:37:43

It's terrible.

Lupe 1:37:45

Are. And I love chatting with you. So I thank you very much for that email that you sent me. And I thank you very much for the relationship we established and. Yeah, thank you for the woman you are. Thank you for the mother you are, for the example you are, for the author you are. Please write that book about love after pain because I think it's very important and you are a very good writer. And just keep writing, girl. Just keep writing, seriously.

And I hope.

Leslie 1:38:18

So I do have a project three coming out. I just need to figure out when but I'm working on it.

Lupe 1:38:25

Well, and if you need a beta reader to help you before you release the book, you know that I'm here for you. And let's do it, girl. Just release those books. Release those books and just read and go on. And I'm pretty sure that in 10 years, we're going to be together on a one-week vacation in the house with no neighbors, just speaking about books and crying because I can see…

Leslie 1:38:53

That would be amazing.

Lupe 1:38:54

That we are big cryers together.

Leslie 1:38:56

That would absolutely be so wonderful.

Lupe 1:38:58

So I thank you very, very much. And…

Leslie 1:39:01

Thank you for having me.

Lupe 1:39:03

Rebels, I will leave the links of the review of Always Forever. I will leave the links to Leslie's Amazon, to her Instagram and Facebook. Make sure you will follow her. Make sure you read the book. If you want to read the review before you buy the book, go on and read it because the review won't tell you any spoilers but will tell you how I felt about the book and then I'm sure that you will want to read it. And I saw that you also opened a business, You're doing..

Leslie 1:39:37

I did. So I opened up because you know I'm totally unsupervised and unhinged and I don't have enough to do, clearly. So I decided to open up like a little merch company because we just needed…

Lupe 1:39:51

Very nice.

Leslie 1:39:51

Some sarcasm in our life and turquoise in our life and it just seemed to work right in. And so we also have that now going. And then when people message me, I actually do respond.

Lupe 1:40:06

That's good. That's a good start. They say that you have to respond on the first five minutes.

Leslie 1:40:09

That's a good start. Jeez. I may not respond in the first five minutes, but give me like a day or so, I'll definitely respond.

Lupe 1:40:19

Because we're millennials. That's how it works with us. So Leslie is gonna send me all her links to her new business and Rebels go and give her some love on her new business. I'm gonna have all the links you guys go make sure you go and give some love to Leslie's new business. So for today, that's it. Thank you rebels for listening to us. Thank you Leslie for joining the chaos and…

Leslie 1:40:48

Interesting.

Lupe 1:40:49

We'll have Leslie back the 25th bye bye rebels. Bye Leslie…

Leslie 1:40:56

Bye.